Eskimos & Lions

An amazing story over at CNN's Website about three lions in Africa who saved a kidnapped girl from her kidnappers and then waited around until she was rescued!

"Police say three lions rescued a 12-year-old girl kidnapped by men who wanted to force her into marriage, chasing off her abductors and guarding her until police and relatives tracked her down in a remote corner of Ethiopia."

Over at EskimoFriends things got a little crazy when some members insisted on using this story as proof that lions and animals in general, have a conscience!

I made the mistake of making this comment:

It hardly proves animals have a conscience!!! What you think the lions 'felt bad' about the kidnapping, had a chat and then decided to intervene!!!

And then ensued, a brilliant debate... my comments are in the reddish brown, and others' comments are in green.

Lion 1: You know what I've been thinking lately?

Lion 2: What?

Lion 1: It must be terrible being an antelope...

Lion 2: What!?!

Lion 1: Think about it, you're out on the serengeti, chewing on some grass minding your own business, when out of nowhere... your kid is snatched away by us... and eaten.

Lion 2: Wow... that's deep, Leo... what, you getting a conscience?

Lion 1: Maybe... I'm just saying, before you judge something, try walking a day in its shoes, you know?

Lion 2: Hey look over there... a bunch of humans are dragging a human cub away... you think they're gonna eat it?

Lion 1: I'm not sure... but I'm not gonna sit here and let it happen... my conscience simply won't allow it!

I agree. it doesnt prove they have a conscience. of course id like to see proof you have one. or anyone else for that matter. usually people cite actions as proof. actions like these. i think assuming just cause you cant communicate with something means it is inferior or lacking a conscience is quite closeminded. replace the lion in that story with a person that was incapable of direct communication. a foreigner perhaps that chased some group off and kept that girl safe and then just up and walked off once authorities got there. without communicating with that person as to why they did it most people would assume that they did out of a sense of right and wrong.so many people seem to me get insulted by the mere idea that animals are like us. but maybe they should remind themselves that they themselves are animals. scoff all you want. people have been for eons when confronted with ideas that step outside their long held beliefs. like say that the sun does not revolve around the earth. or that the earth is flat. doesnt bother me a bit. at one time einstein and newton both were considered quacks. and no im in no way comparing myself to them, im saying that their ideas were laughed at....until later they proved quite correct.sometimes what people regard as obvious end up being very wrong. but it did make for some entertaining conversations between lions.

Of course the flaw in your argument, is that even if the person was incabable of communication, we have a reference point... I.E. they are human, so it is likely that they think and feel the same way as most other humans (not all)... even FOREIGNERS! ha ha haLions, will kill the cubs from another male before mating with the mother... they kill and eat animals every single day and quite often, will kill people too... but you're right, that day they just saw an injustice and decided to help.

Many scientists believe that our ability to kill is what remains of our animal instincts... along with the need to procreate and provide immortality to our genes... but, our thought processes have evolved far beyond kill, eat, f**k, survive, although they are still strong driving forces... to suggest that a lion or any other animal can't feel empathy would be silly, but to compare them to a foreigner or a mute!

Oooooooooooookay!

Maybe our lives are just very highly evolved mating rituals, ur looks maybe have quite a part of it, but maybe morals are just a new way to compete. the more moral u are, the more attractive you are and the more likely u are to get some so maybe we still are "kill, eat, f**k, surviving" machines.I'm thinking most animals will instinctively stick up for someone being abused, even if in another situation they'd gobble it up. And that's probably the basis for our perception of "morals".

Par example, if u saw a baby calf screaming whilee being trampled by bulls. You would most probably be moved instinctively before thinking over the moral situation. And if you could intervien u probably would and that would be completely based on instinct. But that doesn't mean that a few months later u won't be eating burgers made from the same lamb. (mmmm burger).

There must be a natural sense of "morals", or instinct to protect inocent etc. Otherwise the whole of nature would just just kill eachother for the sheer fun of it. It's just something which has evolved to to stop nature from destroying itself.Ability to comunicate our ideas is perhaps the only thing which makes us think that we're so much different from these other animals.

I would say 99 times out of 100, if a lion saw a calf (no need to prefix 'baby' before calf... we know what a calf is! Unless you can get adult calfs?) it would simply wait for the bulls to bugger off and then it would eat the calf and would be too rude to even thank the bulls for providing the free lunch. You guys still seem to be using human examples to illustrate how animals have morals or ethics! And even a vegetarian animal like say a fluffy bunny, couldn't give two sh*ts about the calf... it's too busy looking for either food, or its next hump to care about a screaming calf.

And as it's a calf... I.E a baby cow, I doubt I'd be eating lamb burgers from the same individual...

lol, Aha! in my analogy u were perhaps a Farmer (and thus would eat some of ur own meat) not a lion. and i was trying to illustrate how ur response to such a thing was instinctive rather than a morally thought-out thing.and i was using that as a comparison with the whole lion situation, when they saved a girl(calf) from those kidknapper dudes(bulls). wheras infact the lions would have eaten her up if she'd been alone and they were hungry(burger) but at that point they instinctively saved the girl.it's exactly the same situationand much apologies for my misuse of prefixes. and yes, a beef burger. u know whatamean. Human's don't have morals it's just a combination of instinct, and showing off to the opposite sex. if it wasn't true then the morals in different secluded societies would be different. But u'll notice the basics of so many cultures are all so similar.but anyhoo that's just a theory. it's cool hearing ur interpretations.

But this is my point ******, the debate is about comparing an animal's conscience to that of a humans, so an analogy is not appropriate.

Also, not many farmers go around killing people.

Are you saying you can't have moral instincts?

Are you saying that because the girl was in danger, the lions decided rather than eat her... to help her? So if she was walking along on her own, they would think, 'great, she is in no danger... I will now eat her, scaring the sh*t out of her in the process... it's alright if I do it!'?

To suggest the humans have no morals, is frankly rediculous and to suggest that a moral standpoint is for pulling chicks is almost insane... many moral choices are made privately and so could have no bearing on making me seem more attractive to women... unless you go around saying things like:

"Hey baby... today I was driving along and could have totally run over this old woman... there was no one around... but I didn't! I bet you've never wanted me more, right?'

Or:

"Hey I was in Amsterdam last weekend and could have paid for sex a thousand times over and you would never know... but you know what... I didn't... for you, baby!"

A white african farmer, threw one of his workers over a fence into a game reserve, where he was promptly eaten by lions... the farmer did it to teach the worker's family a lesson. He beat the guy up a bit first... and right infront of the lions!

Remarkably, the lions saw it as simply a gift... a free lunch if you will. They weren't outraged by the injustice of the farmer beating up on the guy, and they certainly didn't seem offended by the farmer's assumption that they would eat the worker.

The farmer took the remains (bones) of the worker home to the worker's family... He's now in jail and during the trial refused to apologize or show any remorse for the worker or his family.

Maybe this pride were rogues... we all know that lions are the most righteous, crime fighting vigilantes since Batman or those dudes in the red caps who used to patrol the underground.

i'm just theorising. and i bet if a persion did some good deed they'd wanna let someone find out bout it, never know they might impress someone.

yeah but i bet the dude wasn't screaming like a little girl. most animals can spot youth a mile off.

Is that so? What are you basing that on, your conversations with rhinos and antelopes at the bar? I remember reading once, that cows think that dogs (all dogs) are actually calfs. If they have problems recognizing their own species... I ain't asking a cow to babysit any time soon.

So morals are only about deeds you actually do? You can't make a moral choice about NOT doing something? People that use deeds, status, money, whatever, to pull women... are making a moral choice... they aren't using morals to attract women.